'Sales is human contact. Genuine interest.' Read the interview at Managementboek.

Why did you write this book?
I wrote my book because I saw how much energy is lost in sales and entrepreneurship. Not because people are not good at their work, but because they are under constant pressure. Many entrepreneurs and sales professionals are preoccupied with having to perform, having to score, having to grow. That puts enormous pressure on conversations, and the moment there is pressure, the honesty can disappear. People sense that straight away. Sales, Honest & Relaxed is my attempt to show that it can be done differently, and that this other path is ultimately not only more pleasant but also more effective.

What, in your view, goes wrong in many sales conversations?
The conversation is often no longer a conversation at all, but a disguised transaction. Someone is sitting across from you, but in your head you are busy with the outcome: is this going to be a deal, yes or no? That means part of your attention is not with the other person, and attention is everything. If you are spending twenty percent of your energy on the result you have to score, you can never deliver a hundred percent value. That may sound abstract, but everyone recognises the feeling when someone is not really listening. It undermines trust, and without trust you build nothing for the long term.

You argue for letting go of the result. Many entrepreneurs find that daunting.
I understand that very well. Entrepreneurs have to pay their own salary, support their team, keep their business running. Results are not a luxury, they are a necessity. But that is exactly why it is so important to understand that you cannot force the result. The only thing you have control over is the quality of your attention, your intention, and continually improving to deliver added value. The decision always lies with the other person. The moment you truly accept that, calm arises, and from that calm conversations become better, more honest, and ultimately more successful.

When did you arrive at that insight yourself?
It was not one single moment, but a process. Until the sale in 2022 I ran WUA, a large market research agency that worked for major clients all over the world. During those years of customer research I kept seeing the same pattern: loyalty does not arise from clever sales techniques, but from how people feel treated. At the same time I noticed in my own company that I was working harder and harder and experiencing less and less calm. On the outside things were going well, but inside I was constantly switched on. That is a dangerous combination.

Was there a moment when you really had to intervene?
Yes. In 2014 I was up against my limit. I was tired, but I kept going anyway. Until I met someone who said something to me that I did not expect. I was telling him about my work, about how successful everything was, and he looked at me and said: 'You are going too fast. You are not making real contact.' Then there was a long silence. After that he said: 'If you make real contact, you have infinite energy.' Those words hit me hard, because I felt he was right. I was constantly busy with movement, with growth, with going forward, but not with connection.

What did that do to you?
It confronted me with something I had not yet put into words myself. I was mainly busy with transactions, not with relationships. And focusing on transactions costs energy, whereas real connection gives energy. That insight fundamentally changed the way I work. I started to slow down. Not by becoming less serious, but by being more aware of my intention in every conversation.

What does that look like in practice?
Before every conversation I remind myself what my intention is. Thirty minutes before the conversation I ask myself: am I here to take or to help? If the answer is not a hundred percent 'help', then I know I am not yet in the right place. That may sound simple, but it takes practice. As an entrepreneur especially, you have to actively remind yourself of it. The moment that intention is clear, the dynamic of the conversation changes completely, and you can also truly be yourself.

What then changes concretely in such a conversation?
You start asking different questions. You are less busy broadcasting and more busy understanding. What is really going on with someone? Where does the question come from? What is at stake for that person? Those are not standard questions, but genuine curiosity. And if you do that well, trust arises of its own accord. Even if no collaboration comes out of it at that moment, the connection remains, and it is pleasant to talk with you. That is crucial for the long term.

You stress the importance of lasting relationships. Why is that so important?
Because real growth never comes from isolated transactions. A customer who feels seen stays longer, grows with you, and tells others about you. Those are fans, and fans only arise when someone has an experience that goes beyond 'the product was good'. It is about attention, humanity, and consistency. People do not remember exactly what you said, but they do remember how it felt to talk with you.

Many organisations say they do not have time for that.
I hear that often, and it is a belief. Taking time for real conversations is seen as inefficient, whereas it actually delivers enormous efficiency in the long term. Less hassle, less turnover, fewer repeat questions. And above all: more calm. Not only with customers, but also internally and financially. Organisations that understand this build in a more stable and more human way.

What do you hope readers take away from your book?
That sales is not a trick and not a performance. It is human contact. Genuine interest. Understanding what drives people and getting a little bit better every day, with fans as the result. If you do that, doing business becomes not only more successful but also more enjoyable and more sustainable. For your customers, your team, and for yourself.